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Post by Sir John on Dec 25, 2012 13:35:00 GMT -5
Swampy,
Maybe I should have said that it is all in line with Austrian economic theory.
SJ
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Post by Sir John on Dec 25, 2012 13:42:28 GMT -5
Swampy,
The word 'Stimulus' is now bastardized to the extent that it bears no relation to what Keynes had in mind. Now, it is not real "stimulus", it is simply an excuse to print endless truck loads of money to keep the music going a bit longer.
Keynes had the idea that governments would use accumulated savings to 'stimulate' a lagging economy, NOT endless borrowing.
Again, JMO
SJ
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Post by Swampy on Dec 25, 2012 14:01:15 GMT -5
Keynes had the idea that governments would use accumulated savings to 'stimulate' a lagging economy, NOT endless borrowing. That's the critical flaw with Keynesian school, I agree. But, if the government doesn't intervene, the downturn would have become a real Depression.
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Post by Sir John on Dec 25, 2012 14:10:16 GMT -5
Swampy,
What the governments did around the world at the time of the GFC was not to AVOID a Depression, but to ensure a far greater collapse in the future.
They simply compounded the problem by trying to solve a debt problem with more debt. It has got ever more insane as time has gone on.
SJ
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Post by Swampy on Dec 25, 2012 14:18:36 GMT -5
How Hayekian of you - the Australian Austrian. ;D
But, if they had NOT intervened, the world's banking system would have collapsed, bringing the global economy with it. Do you want that?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2012 14:30:08 GMT -5
Here's what I would like to see from someone. A point by point explanation of the problem and the proposed fix.
For example: 1. Problem - fiscal cliff, Solution - impeach every member of Congress and start over with unaligned members of Congress. 2. Problem - Gun control, Solution - Ban sale of automatic weapons and clips that fire more than 6 bullets at a time. etc, etc, etc.
It could go on ad nauseum, but at least it would state a problem and how YOU would propose to fix it rather than just spouting platitudes that 50% of the people would agree with and 50% wouldn't.
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Post by Sir John on Dec 25, 2012 14:47:50 GMT -5
Denny,
"Solution - impeach every member of Congress and start over with unaligned members of Congress."
I doubt this would get past the SCOTUS, and if it did it would take years and even then who votes in favour of such a thing, the Congress?
"Solution - Ban sale of automatic weapons and clips that fire more than 6 bullets at a time. etc, etc, etc."
Again, would this get past SCOTUS? And with 300+ million firearms in the USA and probably 100 to 200 million owners, it would be an impossible and pointless exercise. Try knocking on the door of 100 million homes and see how far you get. Often a bullet through the door! And your Constitution says the same as ours, "fair compensation".
Think 'Prohibition' in the 1920s where it failed to stop drinking and selling and importation etc.
The barn door is wide open and the horse has bolted!
JMO
SJ
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Post by Sir John on Dec 25, 2012 15:36:50 GMT -5
PS,
The 'Fiscal Cliff' is just a small part of the problem, and not a solution to it. The music is going to be faced sometime and it may as well be now, and many say that the crunch should have been faced as the GFC dawned years ago. The Depression would have been short and nasty, but well and truly over by now.
I am not qualified to say if that is correct, but it sounds logical when compared with what we have in front of us.
SJ
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2012 19:23:39 GMT -5
John,
I was just using those as examples of what I am looking for from anyone. Of course the "answers" I gave wouldn't fly but they were definitive. Cause and action.
Denny
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Post by boxcar on Dec 25, 2012 23:29:49 GMT -5
D>Problem - fiscal cliff, Solution - impeach every member of Congress and start over with unaligned members of Congress.<
That sounds just like the Tea Party,. Thank you Dennty. I thought you did not approve of the Tea Party.
D>Gun control, Solution - Ban sale of automatic weapons and clips that fire more than 6 bullets at a time. etc, etc, etc. <
Shot guns are the solution?
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Post by Sir John on Dec 25, 2012 23:30:16 GMT -5
Denny,
I sort of thought that but was trying to illustrate that so many 'solutions' are not doable at all.
As for the economy etc, the future is about set in stone given the total inability of pollies around the world to stop spending. Their natural reaction is to increase income not decrease expenditure or even much of a combination. Thus the impasse in Washington, Japan and even Europe with their 'austerity'.
Same with guns, the problem is NOT solvable, not that I am sure it needs to be.
SJ
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2012 9:22:10 GMT -5
Ok, you two are fixated on the two examples I gave instead of the broader picture.
Let's try this, and it may be harder for those who don't live in the states although given your knowlege of the states probably not. Make a list of the 10 most pressing problems we in the states face today. Next, answer those problems SPECIFICALLY. No generalities, no platitudes, just concrete 1+1=2 answers. Problems such as gun control, fiscal cliff/budget balancing, debt ceiling, climate change (Oh yeah, none of you believe in that), low pay for teachers in X state, infrastructure falling apart, etc. There are a zillion things we bitch about so name them and let's see if we can come up with a solution to them.
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Post by cwood14 on Dec 31, 2012 22:59:05 GMT -5
Basically you have a society that has borrowed prosperity for the last 100 years. The most basic economic principle, at least one that is honest, is an economy that is a product of surplus, not debt. Fractional Reserves, price fixing, subsidy, picking favorites and gambling against taxes and interest in hopes to reduce your debt has better chances at a casino.
Again, I can not express enough the basic duty of the law, if the law is used for plunder, the gate is open to create a system on that same principle. Law for the use of protecting our rights is lost on a false sense of security. The few, politicians, will use the law to benefit their position at the expense of others. The many, the voter, will use the law to benefit their position at the expense of others, each becoming dependent rather that free and independent to the state and the affairs they have dictated by their own hand.
Only those with certain enlightenment will rather use the law for it's rightful purpose to strike down plunder, unfortunately such enlightenment exists in a portion of the demographic that is so small, one would have a hard time identifying their existence.
A constitution, in order succeed must be clear and concise in stamping out plunder before it begins, ours failed the day it was ratified with slavery in it.
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Post by cwood14 on Dec 31, 2012 23:09:03 GMT -5
The financial markets should have been allowed to fail. The 30 year mortgage/outlay was probably the most economically destructive program FDR enacted(debatable because everything he enacted is a mess) because it negates the law of supply and demand through price gouging, price fixing and the long term outlay. It creates a system to which boom values, boom cost of living is propped up and kept high, when wages from a recession are decreasing. This increases the poverty rate and spreads the cost of lemon socialism to every poor household.
If the market is allowed to fail, it can do so quickly, find equilibrium and bounce back once debt is liquidated. Bailing out these failed systems only delays the inevitable and prolongs it for a longer period of pain yet to come.
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Post by cwood14 on Dec 31, 2012 23:12:58 GMT -5
How? 1. Spread the message of liberty... 2. Remove the superfluous laws on legal tender and return constitutional coin to act alongside with fiat money. 3. End the fractional reserve policy. 4. Stop the borrowing. 5. Bring the troops home 6. End agriculture subsidies and price fixing on crops. 7. Set up real philanthropy with a program(Homestead Act) for freeing up land, allow charities, farmers and ranchers to donate homes, seed & livestock to the homeless so they may build small farming communities.(voluntarily) 8. Remove our troops from the Middle East. 9. Phase out forced welfare system 10. Allow the economy to drive itself on resource output, surplus and savings. 11. Begin phasing out government welfare systems. 12. Amend the constitution to define "provide, promote" and put forth rules to negate use of "Necessary and Proper" for plundering citizens. 13. Repeal the War Powers Act and the War Powers Resolution, return to intended military to which the states controlled the militia and appoint those officers, 2 year tax appropriation, declaration of war. 14. Amend the constitution to clearly define "indentured servitude". 15. Amend the constitution to clearly state that the prescription of law is force and such force may only be used in the defense of life, liberty and property of the people. No persons or groups are entitled to emolument or privileges at the expense of others by misuse of the law.
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