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BEF
Feb 24, 2013 18:53:42 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2013 18:53:42 GMT -5
This is the message Winnie presented to his distracters who had questoned Winnies intelligence on placing so much dependence on the U.S. , with America in the do the Empire can survive / will survive .
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BEF
Feb 24, 2013 22:09:13 GMT -5
Post by Sir John on Feb 24, 2013 22:09:13 GMT -5
Mule,
I think this is what you have in mind, from the "fight them on the beaches" speech.
"Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old."
Given that the much maligned 'British Empire" was in the van of opposing the bloody tyrant hitler, and fought, alone, for 3 and half years before the "New World" arrived like John Wayne's 7th Cavalry, they deserve respect and not denigration.
JMO
SJ
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BEF
Feb 24, 2013 22:26:06 GMT -5
Post by Sir John on Feb 24, 2013 22:26:06 GMT -5
Mule,
Everybody knows and accepts that WW2 was won in the factories and shipyards of America, along with the rivers of blood in Russia.
But many countries were fighting and dying for years before the fight finally included Americans. Even the much vaunted 8th Air Force did not commence major operations until May 1943!
The suggestion that the British were fighting to the last American is an insult. Perhaps someone here can tell me what would America have done if Hitler had not had a moment of greater insanity, and NOT declared war on the USA?
Gone to Tokyo first, and then turned towards Europe?
SJ
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Feb 24, 2013 22:42:18 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2013 22:42:18 GMT -5
One must understand that Empire and France declared war on Germany , it was their fight and they were confident that the task would be handled in short order , it was not Americas fight , read American Bund 1939 , interesting reading and shows that the average American was not interested with what was going on across the ocean .
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BEF
Feb 24, 2013 23:08:59 GMT -5
Post by Sir John on Feb 24, 2013 23:08:59 GMT -5
"they were confident that the task would be handled in short order"
I do not know how anybody could arrive at that conclusion! Britain was still bleeding and grieving from 1918!
Yes, Britain and France did declare war on Germany, as they should have. They had a moral and treaty obligation to assist Poland, and delaying tactics to prepare for the obvious war were finished.
Britain and France went to war for honourable reasons, to oppose a bloody thirsty tyrant bent on dominating as much of the world as he could achieve. Hitler did not become a threat to world peace in 1942 or 1943, he was a threat from about 1936! No matter what American gallop polls may have said in 1939.
Does America really believe that isolationism would have saved her from the attention of Hitler?
SJ
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BEF
Feb 25, 2013 0:10:48 GMT -5
Post by Swampy on Feb 25, 2013 0:10:48 GMT -5
The Americans, however, beat the Japanese largely by themselves.
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BEF
Feb 25, 2013 2:13:03 GMT -5
Post by Sir John on Feb 25, 2013 2:13:03 GMT -5
"The Americans, however, beat the Japanese largely by themselves."
......With a little help from the Chinese who tied down over a MILLION peace lovers on the mainland. And a couple of small insignificant nations to the south.
Then there was Burma! With a huge number of Indian and English soldiers.
Apart from that......
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BEF
Feb 25, 2013 2:41:41 GMT -5
Post by Sir John on Feb 25, 2013 2:41:41 GMT -5
PS,
Mr Wikipedia tells me that the Indian Army sent THREE MILLION troops to theatres in WW2. Including Burma of course, but also Nth Africa etc.
Not far short of the USA!
SJ
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Feb 25, 2013 11:31:38 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2013 11:31:38 GMT -5
Sir John , Clauswitz said if your going to declare war on someone you should have a fair idea that you can defeat them , the Empire and France didn't seem to have a clue , all they did was piss the Germans off who then proceeded to kick their arse .
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BEF
Feb 25, 2013 12:46:34 GMT -5
Post by Sir John on Feb 25, 2013 12:46:34 GMT -5
Yes, very true, you do not pick a fight with someone who is likely to knock your head off, pure common sense!
But as I have tried to explain, sometimes circumstances are such that you have to make a stand, and mean it, and that means saying STOP!
Just what was Chamberlain meant to do? wait until Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium, and so on were all under the nazi jackboot before Britain said that? Sometimes you have to fight for a principle, knowing that you may get killed, surely you should know that.
Britain did not WANT a new war, she had no moral choice. She took that choice and kept fighting, alone, until the 7th turned up.
SJ
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Feb 25, 2013 18:24:07 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2013 18:24:07 GMT -5
America spent 8 long hard years booting the Empire out of the U.S. , And like a bad penny the Empire kept showing back up , 1812 , 1917 , 1941 , I myself have a hard time understanding the need for Royalty in the 21st century , and why people choose to refer to themselves as subjects , the Empire has a nasty habit of over estimaiting their value . I feel the Empire and France did more harm than good by going on the attack before they could anything to stop the Gremans .
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BEF
Feb 28, 2013 8:14:22 GMT -5
Post by mcnoch on Feb 28, 2013 8:14:22 GMT -5
BTW the Allied forces failed to stop the evacuation of more than 101 500 German and Italian forces, with about 10 200 vehicles, ~ 250 artillery pieces and tank as well as 17 000 tons of stores during the Aug 3-16 1943. It seems that destroying fleeing forces is not so high on the military agenda of all nations, compared to the risk of high-looses to do so.
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BEF
Feb 28, 2013 9:11:42 GMT -5
Post by Swampy on Feb 28, 2013 9:11:42 GMT -5
BTW the Allied forces failed to stop the evacuation of more than 101 500 German and Italian forces, with about 10 200 vehicles, ~ 250 artillery pieces and tank as well as 17 000 tons of stores during the Aug 3-16 1943. It seems that destroying fleeing forces is not so high on the military agenda of all nations, compared to the risk of high-looses to do so. Yes, and the Japanese at Guadalcanal could also evacuate. There seems to be an ability for a cornered enemy to escape, even when the seas are controlled by the enemy. If that's so, then how miraculous would the Dunkirk rescue be? I've been wondering about that.
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Feb 28, 2013 10:30:13 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2013 10:30:13 GMT -5
Yes the Germans did evacuate their forces over the straits of Messnia , Sicily to the mainland , While Monty and Patton were trying to out do each other .
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