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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2012 18:47:15 GMT -5
Griffin,
Very well put, I agree with almost all of your post. It's nice to hear someone from outside the US describe how we feel about freedom of speech such as you did. While I totally disagree with the jerk who attacked Islam in the now oft-talked about video/movie, in this country he could legally do so. It is much like burning our flag. Personally I'd rather KILL anyone who does so but they are protected by our laws. I disagree with many of our laws regarding what we consider to be basic freedoms, but they ARE our laws and I abide by them. Many countries in the world don't have that kind of freedom, and honestly, don't want them.
Denny
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Post by robbieroberts on Sept 22, 2012 3:22:08 GMT -5
Denny listen to me. First of all you are wrong. We do not take your money. The aid and funds your Government gives to Pakistan goes in the Swiss accounts of Asif Ali Zardari. Pakistan is not benefiting from that. We dont want your Aid. We just want you people to get out of Pakistan and mind your own business. You don't know what it feels like when your family is being killed and later declared terrorists. When Russia attacked Afghanistan then you people even boycotted the Olympics. And yes you people also made a movie Rambo 3 in which you showed that Sylvester Stallone's rescuing a American so he can go back to America and tell people the truth about how Afghans are being tortured. Now you people are Torturing the Afghans and degrading them in the eyes of the world by calling them as terrorists. You people are not even sincere to your own souls. what else can you do? Tell me exactly how did the war between America and Afghanistan started??? I want to know how much knowledge you have
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Post by robbieroberts on Sept 22, 2012 3:25:57 GMT -5
Denny I am not against you man. You shouldn't declare my people terrorist unless you hear my point of view.
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Post by robbieroberts on Sept 22, 2012 3:38:39 GMT -5
Sir John: 1) Afghanistan is Geographically connected to Pakistan and General Zia gave refuge to them at a certain period when they were not declared terrorists. After that no Afghan was allowed to migrate to Pakistan. Now only Afghans that come to Pakistan come with their official Passports and Visas. 2) What about this? www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2113410/US-soldier-kills-16-Afghan-civilians-deadly-shooting-rampage.htmlUSA kills Afghan people so what do you expect them to do? stay silent??? 3) There are some people who kill women on not wearing Hijab. I agree... but not everyone. They are free to wear hijab or not but let me tell you 90% women wear Hijab because it is compulsory in our religion. They are not forced by anyone. 4) Salman Rushdie was not a true Muslim .. Everyone is against him. And I said that sentence because I meant that many Muslims do not forget their religion .. like in your society now the rate of people becoming Atheist is increasing. 5) Yes Muslims did wrong in Sydney. I condemn that. Our Islam doesn't teach us to kill innocents. So I'm against what they did in Sydney. In short.. Not everyone in Pakistan is the same. If there are some people who have complex minds. There are also people who have broad minds. You see we all are Humans. We are brothers but the only thing that separates us is our Governments. I am a peace Loving person .. And I want to see this world when there's no war and people of every Religion are living together.
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Post by robbieroberts on Sept 22, 2012 3:42:45 GMT -5
Guys our Islam doesn't tell us to kill innocent.. And those who kill innocents are out of the Circle of Islam. People who kill innocents in the Name of Allah are wrong. But accept the fact that why offend any one's religion when you know that it might increase tension between two nations. Think about it. We want to have good relations with everyone and we will do our part. You people should also condemn wrong that is happening with Pakistan and help make this world a peaceful place.
Regards: Robbie
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Post by jerryfmcompushaft on Sept 22, 2012 7:06:55 GMT -5
Hi Robbie - Good to see you back. You hadn't posted here for a while and I was afraid that you had left us. In short.. Not everyone in Pakistan is the same. If there are some people who have complex minds. There are also people who have broad minds. And Robbie - the same applies to the US. Not everyone is the same yet you make statements like " Now you people are Torturing the Afghans and degrading them in the eyes of the world by calling them as terrorists." Please tell me who it was that flew two airplanes into the World Trade Towers and one into the Pentagon killing over 3000 innocent men women and children? I know it wasn't the people of Pakistan but it was the people of al Qaida, whose leader was given refuge in Pakistan for years. I, like you, hate war but as long as your people attack my people I will fight to defend them. If the people of Pakistan would control their people who do want war and want to kill westerners, we would GLADLY get out of Pakistan and leave you alone. When are you going to start controlling your own violent people? I do hope that you have noticed that these Pakistani people have killed a good number of your own people and destroyed much PakistanI property just recently. The aid and funds your Government gives to Pakistan goes in the Swiss accounts of Asif Ali Zardari. And why do you let him get away with it? Is this one of the people in Pakistan that the Pakistani people should be controling so we don't have to? Why are you looking to the US to correct all wrongs in Pakistan? Or blaming the US for everything that is wrong in Pakistan?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2012 8:08:41 GMT -5
Denny listen to me. First of all you are wrong. We do not take your money. The aid and funds your Government gives to Pakistan goes in the Swiss accounts of Asif Ali Zardari. Pakistan is not benefiting from that. We dont want your Aid. We just want you people to get out of Pakistan and mind your own business. You don't know what it feels like when your family is being killed and later declared terrorists. When Russia attacked Afghanistan then you people even boycotted the Olympics. And yes you people also made a movie Rambo 3 in which you showed that Sylvester Stallone's rescuing a American so he can go back to America and tell people the truth about how Afghans are being tortured. Now you people are Torturing the Afghans and degrading them in the eyes of the world by calling them as terrorists. You people are not even sincere to your own souls. what else can you do? Tell me exactly how did the war between America and Afghanistan started??? I want to know how much knowledge you have First off, I'm glad that we didn't chase you off - I think. All of us wanted a RATIONAL discourse between you and us without any attacks on faith, character or whatever. I'm afraid that what you took as attacks on you and Pakistan and Islam were really facts as we know them here. An advantage that all of us have over you personally is time and age. We've all been through it before and with age comes wisdom. Hopefully, as you grow older, you will also grow wiser and more knowlegable in the ways of the world. We are all not perfect by any means but most of us try to be the best we can be. I wish that for you as well. Please keep in mind that your first post asked us for our opinions on Pakistan. Whejn we gave them, you went off on a tangent. This time, let's keep it lower key. There will still be things we write that you won't like or agree with but this isn't an attack on you. So where you feel we are wrong, try to convince us otherwise. There is nothing wrong with areeing to disagree, so please keep that in mind. "Denny listen to me. First of all you are wrong. We do not take your money. The aid and funds your Government gives to Pakistan goes in the Swiss accounts of Asif Ali Zardari. Yes, you DO take our money. How it is distributed when it gets to Pakistan is something else. I suspect that your allegations regarding where it goes are inaccurate because if it was true, would not the Pakistani people rise up in rebellion and throw him out? Pakistan is not benefiting from that. We dont want your Aid. We just want you people to get out of Pakistan and mind your own business. We agree that we should be out of Pakistan. I can't see any reason to be somewhere we are not wanted AND we should keep our money. We should use our money where is is wanted, needed, and where the people like us.You don't know what it feels like when your family is being killed and later declared terrorists. To my knowlege, the US has never declard Pakistan to be a terrorist nation. There are terrorist in Pakistan who are Pakistani, but unfortunately, there are terrorists in the US who are terrorists as well. Also unfortuntely, the one's in the US are almost 100% Muslims either born overseas or who have converted while here. When Russia attacked Afghanistan then you people even boycotted the Olympics. And that was stupid for us to do that. Sport should be separated from international politics.And yes you people also made a movie Rambo 3 in which you showed that Sylvester Stallone's rescuing a American so he can go back to America and tell people the truth about how Afghans are being tortured. Surely you don't think that movies such as Rambo are reality, do you? they are meant for entertainment not education. Only a fool would beleive any of those type of movies. Now you people are Torturing the Afghans and degrading them in the eyes of the world by calling them as terrorists .I can't say for a fact that the US is torturing Afghanis (nor can you), but I hope that isn't true. By and large, those we call terrorist are AQ, Taliban, Haqqanis, etc., not the Afghan people themselves. The same goes for Pakistan.You people are not even sincere to your own souls. what else can you do? Would you mind explaining this. I don't understand what you are getting at.Tell me exactly how did the war between America and Afghanistan started??? How exactly? I really don't know any more than just a slight memory of our SpecOps folks being invited in by the Northern Territory people to hep them to overthrow the Taliban and then it grew from there. I don't claim to be a historian. I want to know how much knowledge you have "Ihave a LOT of knowlege, all of which is gathered from being older and wiser than most and having experienced moe than most people could ever expect to.Hopefully my responses will help understand how I feel about what you have asked and that you will take them calmly and perhaps stir other questions or observations that you may have.
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Post by jerryfmcompushaft on Sept 22, 2012 9:06:53 GMT -5
Robbie,
Christian pastor Youcef Nadarkhani has spoken out in a letter of thanks to his supporters around the world after his release from the Iranian prison where he was held for three years for refusing to renounce his faith. [url=http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/09/21/pastor-youcef-nadarkhani-writes-letter-thanks-to-supporters/#ixzz27CuQbwjS ] Read more: [/url]
I know these are not Pakistanis but they are Muslims. Christians in the US would never put anyone in jail for their religious beliefs.
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Post by Swampy on Sept 22, 2012 9:08:44 GMT -5
That is true, but he has an advantage over ALL of us in seeing the other side of the coin. That's why he's such a valuable addition to our community. The late Professor Marshall of the University of Chicago said that, in studying world history, we in the West have sadly neglected the contributions of Islamic civilization.
I understand Pakistan is made up of four groups, and one of them is the wild tribal region that is supporting the AQ, while another is a more modern, democratic one that is pro-West.
For what it's worth, when martial law was declared a few years ago, the lawyers in Pakistan protested the ending of the rule of law, and the lawyers in New York City Bar made a resolution supporting them. So there is a kindred spirit.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2012 13:51:29 GMT -5
"but he has an advantage over ALL of us in seeing the other side of the coin."
And that's why I'm hoping for a dispassionate discourse with him. And FWIW, SOME of us have experiences in that part of the world and DO know whereof we speak.
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Post by jerryfmcompushaft on Sept 22, 2012 14:56:09 GMT -5
I understand Pakistan is made up of four groups, and one of them is the wild tribal region that is supporting the AQ, while another is a more modern, democratic one that is pro-West. And which group was it that declared a national holiday so the people could demonstrate in the streets???
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Post by Swampy on Sept 22, 2012 15:02:29 GMT -5
I don't know, but
So the government is doing something to contain the violence.
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Post by Sir John on Sept 22, 2012 15:30:40 GMT -5
Sir John: 1) Afghanistan is Geographically connected to Pakistan and General Zia gave refuge to them at a certain period when they were not declared terrorists. After that no Afghan was allowed to migrate to Pakistan. Now only Afghans that come to Pakistan come with their official Passports and Visas. AFAIK, the Taliban and al Qaeda have had refuge in Pakistan for years, ever since things got too hot for them in Afghanistan. Nobody ever fingers them to the governments of Pakistan or the US. In fact they are protected, and they know VERY well that they are a drone target anywhere, and so they fill the house with mothers and babies to gain a propaganda advantage.2) What about this? www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-....ng-rampage.htmlUSA kills Afghan people so what do you expect them to do? stay silent??? After 911, it was apparent that Afghanistan was the major base of al Qaeda in the world. The 911 idea and its planning was done there. Its leader lived there in a cave somewhere before fleeing to his sanctuary in Pakistan. Pakistan made NO effort to hand him over. 3) There are some people who kill women on not wearing Hijab. I agree... but not everyone. They are free to wear hijab or not but let me tell you 90% women wear Hijab because it is compulsory in our religion. They are not forced by anyone.This statement is contradictory. We see enough of women executed for various charges like after being forcibly raped, they are murdered for ADULTERY!!!!
4) Salman Rushdie was not a true Muslim .. Everyone is against him. And I said that sentence because I meant that many Muslims do not forget their religion .. like in your society now the rate of people becoming Atheist is increasing. Salman Rushdie was born and raised in a Muslim family! The Fatwa was issued and attacks made on him after the Fatwa. He still lives in danger!I am an atheist!!!! That decision is NOBODY else's business but my own! NOBODY has ANY right to force his views on me! I can take up Christianity or Islam or Judaism tomorrow if I so wish, or not! No Holy Book tells me to "Convert or Kill the Infidel". No Holy Book tells me "Do not take the Christian or the Jew as a friend", or "Kill the Muslim who leaves Islam", or "it is acceptable to lie to the non Muslim", or........
Islam has been at war with the Infidel since the days of Mohammad, and the scimitar went all to way to Spain, as Islam STILL claims ownership of SPAIN!!! Even though they we thrown out in 1492! As for Israel it was Jewish many centuries before Islam was ever invented. It has been conquered by Romans, and a dozen other in the past 3000 years,5) Yes Muslims did wrong in Sydney. I condemn that. Our Islam doesn't teach us to kill innocents. So I'm against what they did in Sydney. Anybody can protest in Australia, they can shout and scream as much as they want, but they do NOT have the right to attack other people not involved, or damage property.
And I do NOT and will NEVER accept the "tiny minority" claim put forward every time some outrageous act is perpetrated. The justification is ALWAYS the Koran, the basic rule book of Islam. In short.. Not everyone in Pakistan is the same. If there are some people who have complex minds. There are also people who have broad minds. You see we all are Humans. We are brothers but the only thing that separates us is our Governments. I am a peace Loving person .. And I want to see this world when there's no war and people of every Religion are living together. Can I suggest that if Islam stops attacking the non Muslim, and killing them wholesale then it would be a huge step to some sort of peace in the world, otherwise.....
I think i can guarantee that a nuke on Tel Aviv will guarantee a nuke on Mecca and all the other Islamic cities, INCLUDING Islamabad!!!
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Post by Swampy on Sept 22, 2012 15:45:53 GMT -5
I've been sympathetic to you, RR, but I also wonder how Osama Bin Laden could have hid in a military town in Pakistan for so long.
I also wonder what the Pakistanis will think if and when the Taliban mutilates Afghani schoolgirls for learning to read and write.
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Post by Daniyel on Nov 4, 2012 16:48:43 GMT -5
Hello robbieroberts,
I could not help but notice your posts seem to have a great deal of hostility in them. Whether that is intentional or not is a question only you can answer.
I think Griffin did an outstanding job of describing what free speech means to an American or a westerner. I might add that I am a believer in God with all my being. The Lord I serve was spit on, mocked, tormented and hung on a cross and in many, many ways still is today by all those who make movies, comic pages, unflattering pictures, etc belittling God or those who love him. I’ve seen Muslims in Afghanistan burning our Holy book, people in my own nation demanding his name be removed from our building, our schools, our money, scenes of his birth have been outlawed in certain cities in my own country, etc. But would I want those behind these deeds dead for doing these things? God forbid anyone would.
God gave us free will, we serve God with a willing heart or we can not serve him at all. Jesus with stood his tormenters not because he had to, but because he willingly wanted to. Love kept him on the cross, love kept him focused when he was spit on, you see love is the key and we have the free will to chose love over eternal death. God is a gentleman, he forces himself on no one, those people whom do not want him in their lives, he will oblige them but that does not mean he stopped loving them. I love the fact that I can speak on any topic I please and the constitution has got my back. Things I say and believe in may be contrary to what many other Americans believe in but to try and take my brothers or sister freedoms from them would make me evil just because I don’t agree with what they say, or the movies they make, or the book they write, etc. I have the freedom not to watch, or not to read. Does removing GOD from the pledge of allegiance remove him from the hearts and minds of those who love him? No, it does not! Does mocking him make him weak and weary? No, he is a bigger GOD than that. Does people turning their backs on him and his love make him any less real? No, it doesn’t. I believe there is only one GOD and he is GOD of all, whether ye be Jew or Greek, Muslim, or Indian, American, or Italian, etc...white, black, yellow, brown, or red. GOD is GOD of all and nothing man says or does to each other will ever change the fact that he loves us all but it’s up to us to love each other.
Love your neighbor as yourself. Honor your father and your MOTHER. Women are the weaker vessels but in our weakness we are made strong. GOD loves females just as much as he does males and men are told to love their wife as they do themselves so treating women with anything less than the respect they deserve is UNGODLY!!!!!
I dare say no one remains any truer to their hearts than a lover of freedom and no where else on Earth is more known for freedom than America. We are a true melting pot of all nations living as one and accepting each other no matter how different we are. We have ever right to be upset and angered when anyone comes here and disrupts our freedoms or kills our innocent people.
When we see thousands of people in your streets waving signs wanting us dead what are we supposed to believe? When we find someone like bin Laden (the man who happily took credit for the innocent slaying of thousands of our private citizen) being housed and fed in your country what are we to believe? When we see the Taliban hide behind women and children what are we to believe? When we see people take credit for killings and pride themselves in killing the so-called infidels what are we to believe? That we are loved...lol I think not.
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