The current situation in Pakistan.

[Swampy]

At the request of our newest member, Robbieroberts, I've started this thread on Pakistan.

I have known many Pakistanis, and, when I was in university, I had a temporary roommate with someone whose father was a general. We would talk many hours about everything and anything, and he was like a brother.

I know many Pakistanis are pro-American, and many more are pro-democracy and anti-Al Qaeda. But there is a segment of society that is unfortunately radical Islamic, and they are supporting the Al Qaeda.

[jerryfmcompushaft]

Sept 17, 2012 8:30:56 GMT -5 Swampy said:

I know many Pakistanis are pro-American, and many more are pro-democracy and anti-Al Qaeda. But there is a segment of society that is unfortunately radical Islamic, and they are supporting the Al Qaeda.

And they are very vocal and good at getting attention. Makes it seem like the entire Arab world is fanatic (when we know it is only 95%

[jerryfmcompushaft]

Welcome again, new member. As I started to say over in your welcome thread, I am most interested in hearing from someone actually living in Pakistan since we are, probably getting only one side of the story. It does seem like, to us, with the limited knowledge available to us, that a once friend is now turning radically against us and our ideas. We find it hard to accept that your country is providing sanctuary for those who would like to kill us. I am trying to understand that your government must listen to its citizens while trying to maintain a friendly stance toward us, but it is difficult for me to understand that many of your citizens apparently hate us. If they do - can you provide some insight into why they do?

[robbieroberts]

We don't want to kill you. We want peace in the world. Our people are now frustrated with this war and we want this to end as soon as possible because we don't want to take part in this war. The only view of Pakistan you get is from the news or when our President visits USA and he says something. We don't support our own Government. We support Imran Khan as a leader and we want him to come into Power. Our nation is being educated and they want change.

And speaking of that new American movie made against our beloved Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) I would like to say that making movies like this would only increase the tense situation between both countries and as you can see that in Pakistan we are not offending your religion nor your people by burning your religious books etc while in America every year some people burn our Precious Holy Quran while some people make cartoons of our Prophet. Every year America does something to make the relations worse. What's the problem with Americans?

[Sir John]

RR,


These insulting people are ignorant idiots, and their actions are childish. Nevertheless the offended party (Islam) should properly direct your anger at the person responsible, even Face Book perhaps, not the entire country. They had NO part in it!

In both the USA and Australia, the freedom of speech and expression is a dearly held right, but if someone here insults me or my family etc, then my anger goes to him, not to the innocent man down the road. Our governments here CANNOT stop a man from expressing himself, or insulting me if he so wishes.

We had in Sydney yesterday a very violent riot caused by this idiot in California, when a large group of Muslims vented their anger against the people of Sydney. Bottles and bricks were thrown and Police injured.

The public response was outrage at the violence.


JMO




SJ


Word "Islam" inserted.

[Sir John]

RR,

With regard to the war in Afghanistan, what are your views on the Taliban, and the US presence in Afghanistan?

Is the Taliban an acceptable alternative Government in Afghanistan? It seems to have a lot of support in Pakistan?


SJ

[Swampy]

Exactly - some idiots make an insulting movie, and Muslims go on a rampage, destroying property and injuring innocents. Are those Muslims in the right???

[Swampy]

Here's an open letter from an Australian that puts things in perspective.

[Sir John]

Peter Fitzsimons is a notorious lefty that made himself even more notorious by APOLOGIZING to islam for causing them to carry out the 911 attack.

The points he make here are valid, but he is an IDIOT!



SJ

[Deleted]

Since Swampy seems to get so upset anytime he perceives a post to be mispaced ;D, I'll continue in this topic area.

"Denny first of all I would like to tell you that the way you are speaking shows that you are speaking what you hear in the news. The truth is something else. None on the people here want to take part in your war its just the Governments that's dealing with your Government. Secondly the thing you are saying about Muslims being killers and terrorist. We are not terrorists, We are educated people, we Score Distinctions in Cambridge International Exams every year. We live with our rules and regulations, we don't let our women show off their bodies in every place because we believe that a Woman is like A precious and beautiful like a diamond and its beauty should be kept in safe rather than showing it to the world that's why they wear Hijab. Muslims don't go astray from their religion and if you are afraid of this type of nation then what can I say? And we don't kill people without any reason. You are the one's who attack with drones in areas where innocent children live. You people are the real terrorist. If you have a good memory then please try to remember that how many attacks you did in Pakistan and what did we do? we didn't destroy the World Trade Center. We didn't destroy Heroshima, Nagasaki. we didn't kill people at the Premier of Dark Knight Rises, we didn't kill thousands of innocent people in Afghanistan. And still we are Terrorists? "

Remember that YOU asked US what our opinion of Pakistan was. I gave it and you decided to vector off into a rant about how good Pakistan and the Muslim religion is? Please.

I hope that the US will ALWAYS go after terrorists wherever they are and if drones are the only way to get them, so be it. The fact that they hide among women and children tells me everything I need to know. If you go back to my original post, nowhere did I call Pakistan a terrorist state. Our religions are different and we certainly don't agree with how you think your women whould be dressed (among other things). There are many things that Islam and Christianity disagree about but still WE feel that we shoudl be able to coexist - YOU (the generic you) don't. YOU take our money and then burn our flag and spit on it. YOU are unable to take criticisms, or even joking or insults about your faith, without going into a frenzy, not us. There are too many differences between our beliefs and faiths to allow us to be friendly - at this time. It wasn't always so.

You say it is because we only know what we read or hear in the news and that is partly true. However, those of us who spent a career in the service to our country can also relate because we experienced being in countries such as those in the Middle East and SW Asia and Asia, etc., and perhaps understand better than the average American about Islam and Muslims in general. I had many good experiences with newly made friends of ALL faiths, including many Muslims, when I was deployed oversears. I thought when you asked the question originally that we could get a good dialog going between us because you wanted to learn how we felt and perhaps why. It appears that I may have been wrong about that and that's too bad. I took this as a good opportunity to learn and understand, not to be attacked in print.

When you ask a question and get a response you don't like, don't answer by attacking. Go back and read my original post and see where we may be able to have some discourse. If you have other questions, ask them and I'll answer if I know the answer or if they ask my opinion. However, if you attack my response because it is MY opinion, expect to be attacked in return.

[Sir John]

RR,


"None on the people here want to take part in your war its just the Governments that's dealing with your Government."

I cannot say about Pakistan government policy, but it seems to be a fact that large numbers of Taliban are given open refuge in Pakistan. THAT is the reason why drones are used to zap them when the US finds them, even if they fill the house with "mothers and babies"



"Secondly the thing you are saying about Muslims being killers and terrorist. We are not terrorists,"

Sorry, but a person who blows up a bus full of Jewish school children and their mothers IS a terrorist. A bunch of visitors to the US who fly planes into buildings and kill near 3000 "innocent civilians" IS a terrorist. And the people who assist them and cheer their actions IS a terrorist. A person who feeds them and gives them accommodation, IS a terrorist. A person who plants a bomb in a 747 and kills 300 "innocent civilians" IS a terrorist as are the people who help him. A person who turns his AK47 on his military comrades IS a terrorist. Osama bin Laden lived in your society without any hindrance from your government or his neighbours.


We are educated people, we Score Distinctions in Cambridge International Exams every year. We live with our rules and regulations,

No argument there. your rules and regulations are your business, but they do NOT apply elsewhere, only in Pakistan. If I am in Pakistan, I obey YOUR rules, if you are in Australia you obey OURS!



"we don't let our women show off their bodies in every place because we believe that a Woman is like A precious and beautiful like a diamond and its beauty should be kept in safe rather than showing it to the world that's why they wear Hijab.'


Sometimes! Imran Kahn had a wife who did not wear a hijab. And Pakistan kills them if they refuse to obey a MANS orders. And a teenager with Downs Syndrome is put in jail on charges fabricated by a religious leader.




"Muslims don't go astray from their religion"


The Koran tells you to KILL them if they do! remember Salman Rushdie???




"and if you are afraid of this type of nation then what can I say? And we don't kill people without any reason. You are the one's who attack with drones in areas where innocent children live. You people are the real terrorist. If you have a good memory then please try to remember that how many attacks you did in Pakistan and what did we do? we didn't destroy the World Trade Center. We didn't destroy Heroshima, Nagasaki. we didn't kill people at the Premier of Dark Knight Rises, we didn't kill thousands of innocent people in Afghanistan. And still we are Terrorists? "



And Australia did not make the You Tube video, but Australians were attacked by Muslims in Sydney yesterday.




JMO



SJ

[jerryfmcompushaft]

Robbie, Since you have shared your ideas, thoughts and feelings, I will try to share ours with you.
1) On September 11th eleven years ago some misguided Muslims hijacked four of our airplanes and crashed two of them into two of our large buildings, killing over 3000 people of all nationalities (including many of the Muslim faith), one into our Pentagon and one was sent into a field in Pennsylvania because the passengers overcame the hijackers. I do not recall any drones killing any Muslims before this happened.
2) We offered the Taliban (then in control of the government of Afghanistan) the opportunity to bring to Justice the perpetrators of the attack on the US. They did nothing.
3) The US then, in partnership with some Afghanistan tribes, brought war upon the Taliban many of whom fled to Pakistan.
4) We have been working with Pakistan since that time to eliminate the threat of the Taliban. Many of these Taliban threats and attacks have been against Pakistanis as well as US and NATO soldiers in Afghanistan.
5) It would appear to many of us that the Pakistanis are not as willing to eliminate the Taliban threat as we would like (bin Laden, the leader of the forces against the US [and some in Pakistan] was in hiding in Pakistan within a short distance of your Military Academy. It is hard to believe that no one knew he was there.
6) Some Taliban from Afghanistan have taken refuge in Pakistan and we have asked you to help us bring them to justice. You do seem reluctant to do so. We have, then, taken it upon ourselves to try to eliminate them with the one weapon left to us - the drones. In so doing, some innocent civilians have also suffered, but, I maintain, not as many as have suffered under the hands of the Taliban.
7) If the Pakistani forces would take action to route out the Taliban taking refuge in your midst, the US would NOT need to use drones to get them. We would be more than happy to let you eliminate the destructive forces in your own country and we will just watch.

Now you know a bit of how we feel, and where those feelings come from.

[Swampy]

I will side with RR on this one. Just because some Muslims are terrorists doesn't mean all Muslims are terrorists - as Dubya Bush said, our war is NOT against Islam; it's against terrorism. And he's a neocon.

[Deleted]

Sept 18, 2012 16:38:14 GMT -5 Swampy said:

I will side with RR on this one. Just because some Muslims are terrorists doesn't mean all Muslims are terrorists - as Dubya Bush said, our war is NOT against Islam; it's against terrorism. And he's a neocon.

Are you saying you side with him in ALL his statements or just the one that HE initiated regarding not all Muslims are terrorists? Well, not all Christians are religious, but what the hell does that have to do with the price of rice in China? For someone whose statements on this forum have been AGRESSIVELY pro-American, anti-terrorist, you should know that you can't have your cake and eat it as well. Ok, enough cliches for now. If RR - or anyone - can't handle an answer to a question they ask, don't ask it then. So far, four of us have given our opinions - including your waffling answer - and that's what the were, an opinion. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Oh wait, that's another cliche. Ah, the hell with it!

[griffin]

Sept 18, 2012 0:39:26 GMT -5 robbieroberts said:

. What's the problem with Americans?

Not being an American I will make the following comments.

Americans cherish their freedom of speech, even when it offends others. You want to see this in action check into the heated commentaries by their politicians towards each other. Their primary law, the US Constitution protects free speech much more then many other countries and being a secular nation, all religions are allowed. The only time this freedom of religion comes into conflict with US law is when people use their 'religion', idealogy, etc. as an excuse to seek insurrection, hate others that are different, etc. etc.

What many people in foreign countries do not understand is the depth of this freedom of speech and unlike their countries the US government cannot halt freedom of speech even if those in power
find a film, song, writings, etc. as being harmful; indeed hateful and wrong as is the film was.

Jerry went over many of the reasons, starting with the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Centre buildings, and the Pentagon. I will add this. Out of the 2,800 killed at the World Trade Centre, approximately 300 were foreign nationals. As Jerry indicated there were muslims that were killed that day. To Americans, this was not only a horrifying attack on civilians, but it was viewed no differently by Americans as an act of war, and not all that different from the Dec. 7, 1941 attack on Pearl Harbour. I can tell you that feeling was felt not only by Americans, but also other democracies around the world.

That fateful morning, I was working out in my living room at 6AM Pacific Time and had turned on the television to watch the news and came in after the first plane had hit one of the towers. When the second plane hit the other tower, I told my wife this was not an accident, but the start of a war. Nothing has changed my view on the despicable actions of terrorists who hide behind their 'religion', and in doing so hurt Islam. I have neighbours who are muslims and they are fine people. Many news articles have been done in America, Canada, UK, etc. to help educate us about the peaceful nature of true followers of Islam. However, there are those who abuse their freedom in democracies at times, however that should not be confused with most Americans who respect other people's beliefs.

The mentally ill, criminals, and those who use hate to promote their religion or idealogy, whether that be in Europe, in the western hemisphere, etc. should not be considered as representative of their governments. Conversely, the people of Pakistan must understand this huge difference in culture and in law.

They should also understand that having Osama Bin Laden hiding in Pakistan and near a Pakistan military base, and with continued attacks in Afghanistasn by terrorists eminating in Pakistan, this only causes friction and hostility. As Jerry mentioned, had the Pakistani government taken this more seriously they would have driven out these terrorists, killed, them or imprisoned them, there would not have been the need for strikes into Pakistan. To be honest, the lack of this action and in particular the support of these terrorists by the Pakistani Intelligence arm, gives the US every reason to treat Pakistan as supporting terrorism. This is compounded with the government allowing extremist Madrassas to exist and poison the minds of your youth against the west and democracy. The violent protests against US embassies, consulates, and interests are criminal in nature and in some instances outright terrorism.

I personally denounce that vile attack against your faith as do millions of Americans and the US government, and others in western democracies. Please don't confuse the acts of a few 'bad apples' with the thoughts of the many in the west and their governments. It would help matters a lot, if the Pakistan government addressed those who incite hatred, take part in or support terrorism, by killing them or incarcerating them for long periods of time, and by destroying the dangerous elements in your society that try to 'poison' the minds of your youth. It would be also helpful if your citizens knew more about the good the west does for Pakistan.