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Dec 6, 2013 23:08:33 GMT -5
Post by Swampy on Dec 6, 2013 23:08:33 GMT -5
That is NOTHING compare to the Hue Massacre, Because the US troops in My Lai couldn't find as many people to kill as the VC did in Hue? If you're going to make that kind of allegation, you're going to have to prove it - do you have proof? Yes, we covered that one - that does NOT justify genocide, and their actions were against 2.5 million out of 12 million southern Vietnamese who were sent to concentration camps, not to mention the Hmong who escaped the hundreds of thousands of boat people, and, last, but certainly not least, the tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands who were sent to the Soviet Union as slave labor. As for your statement, ... well, yes. We didn't sent the Germans and Japanese to concentration camps, and, after the American Civil War, the victorious Union didn't send the defeated southerners to concentration camps. How can you even ask such a question? Coongratulations!
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Post by dontom on Dec 7, 2013 0:01:17 GMT -5
If you're going to make that kind of allegation, you're going to have to prove it - do you have proof? It was a question, not a statement or allegation. And BTW, you never answered it. well, yes. We didn't sent the Germans and Japanese to concentration camps, Why would we when they want to go home thousands of miles away? You cannot compare that to anything that even resembles a civil war. and, after the American Civil War, the victorious Union didn't send the defeated southerners to concentration camps. And do such civil wars ever really end? "The Civil War is not ended: I question whether any serious civil war ever does end." --T. S. Eliot But it's rather peaceful in Vietnam these days isn't it? The commies have been trying to get more people from the south into their commie politics for quite a while now. Even the north is saying there isn't quite enough people getting into politics from the south, the last I read in a paper several years ago. I guess it's their version of PC stuff. Thanks. I hope to be more busy then and with full days of light. I work nights so I only have a few hours of daylight by the time I wake up. But that's more daylight than those who work the dayshift, which is my least favorite of all work shifts. BTW, my total spendable income will increase after I retire. I retired at the maximum benefits, after almost 35 years on the same job as well as the age of 64. And also collect social security. And a lot less deductions. I have been working for less than free for around a year already! I really should have retired before we went on our long RV vacation. But then, I wasn't even seriously thinking about retiring so soon after. Later, I started looking at numbers and then I realized it was costing me money to work compared to being retired! And that's been true for more than a year already! -Don- SSF, CA
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Post by Swampy on Dec 7, 2013 0:25:52 GMT -5
In regards to the comparison of the Hue massacre v My Lai, the Americans can definitely kill far more, because they and their allies, the ARVN, controlled most of South Vietnam. If you want to keep shifting the goalpost, you will have the burden of proof, otherwise you will always be able to raise questions and issues.
In regards to the issue of sending Germans and Japanese to concentration camps, the point remains that we did not commit the brutalities the commies did, and, quite honestly, you're trying to evade the point, namely, that South Vietnamese would have been better off if they had stayed independant from the commies - just as the northern Vietnamese would have been better off, as witness the mass exodus in 1954.
As for the peace in Vietnam today, that does NOT justify genocide - it's also peaceful in South Korea, Germany, and Japan.
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Post by dontom on Dec 7, 2013 6:04:35 GMT -5
As for the peace in Vietnam today, that does NOT justify genocide - Does that mean you agree that the commies are not always evil? It's some people who are evil and some of those are commies and some of those are not. Some of those non-commie evil people might even hate the commies more than most others. But you cannot compare a war to peacetime anywhere. There are always more a**holes on all sides when there's a war. Haven't you ever noticed that? -Don- SSF, CA
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Dec 7, 2013 10:18:58 GMT -5
Post by Swampy on Dec 7, 2013 10:18:58 GMT -5
You're trying to divert the issue - the point is that, even if Vietnam is a utopia today, the communist regime was brutal AFTER the war and BEFORE the partition became finalized, not to mention DURING the war. So, if South Vietnam had survived, it would have been a better place.
And Vietnam is peaceful, but it's the peace of a brutal dictatorship, from the various reports.
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Dec 7, 2013 10:47:38 GMT -5
Post by hornet32 on Dec 7, 2013 10:47:38 GMT -5
Everyone talking brutality one needs to understand that after tet the American Army became brutal without a cause the high command could not control transgressions against the South Vietnamese or even with in the ranks fragging was a frequent event especially against 2nd Lts it got so bad that 2nd Lts were sent to Vietnam as observers for their 1st 30 days and gave no orders , this was as good a reason of ending our involvement in Vietnam as any .
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Dec 7, 2013 13:44:13 GMT -5
Post by dontom on Dec 7, 2013 13:44:13 GMT -5
You're trying to divert the issue - the point is that, even if Vietnam is a utopia today, the communist regime was brutal AFTER the war and BEFORE the partition became finalized, not to mention DURING the war. So, if South Vietnam had survived, it would have been a better place. And Vietnam is peaceful, but it's the peace of a brutal dictatorship, from the various reports. Wars are not really over with when one sides claims victory. It takes quite a while for things to normalize. Even WW2 is not really over with if we continue to hear about all those war crime trials that continue for many, many years after the war is "over", And who is and is not charged with such crimes only depends on which side wins the war. Not all commie leaders are a**holes and not all non-commie leaders are good guys. There were a**holes on both sides of the Vietnam war. And if we were not there and the south won, what makes you so sure they would not have been even bigger a**holes to the north? IMAO, what works best in any civil war is just let them all kill each other and we should stay out of it. IMO, if we helped all Vietnam run an honest election, as was supposed to happen, that would have been fine. But since we knew the north would win such, the only answer was to kill them, but they still win. But such democracy would not be fine in Iraq where so many believe democracy is evil as they believe laws must come from God, not man. But even there, I would not mind FORCING democracy on them as long as the first question on the ballot were if the USA should get out of Iraq ASAP. Then I bet those in Iraq would change their feelings about democracy real fast! Vietnam was never two countries. It was a divided country, which means we were getting involved in a civil war and that's what I am so against. -Don- SSF, CA
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Dec 7, 2013 13:53:47 GMT -5
Post by Sir John on Dec 7, 2013 13:53:47 GMT -5
YAWN!
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Dec 7, 2013 20:24:51 GMT -5
Post by Swampy on Dec 7, 2013 20:24:51 GMT -5
Agreed. Don, you haven't said anything to justify what the commies did, namely, commit genocide, and you definitely haven't said anything to deny the fact that South Vietnam would be better off if it hadn't fallen to the communists.
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Dec 7, 2013 21:43:11 GMT -5
Post by dontom on Dec 7, 2013 21:43:11 GMT -5
Don, you haven't said anything to justify what the commies did, namely, commit genocide, and you definitely haven't said anything to deny the fact that South Vietnam would be better off if it hadn't fallen to the communists. And you have not showed me anything other than the losers of a civil war lost a lot, and they continued to lose even more for a while after the war was declared won my the north. As expected, in such a civil war there, IMO. These days, who won, I doubt makes much difference to any of the Vietnamese or even to us. No matter how you look at it, we fought that war for nothing. IMO, less South Vietnamese would have been killed if we stayed out of it completely. So who did we help by being there? -Don- SSF, CA
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Dec 7, 2013 21:50:26 GMT -5
Post by dontom on Dec 7, 2013 21:50:26 GMT -5
"The man who lets himself be bored is even more contemptible than the bore." --Samuel Butler Take a nap and when you wake up, perhaps you will have something more intelligent to say. -Don Quoteman
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Dec 7, 2013 23:06:07 GMT -5
Post by Sir John on Dec 7, 2013 23:06:07 GMT -5
I always amazes me that the ONE subject that is guaranteed to generate 10 pages of debate in a US forum, is VIETNAM!
The same old,. same old, rehashed for 10 pfucking pages, EVERY TIME!
YAWN!
SJ
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Dec 7, 2013 23:16:20 GMT -5
Post by Sir John on Dec 7, 2013 23:16:20 GMT -5
"The man that uses the wisdom of others to appear intelligent, is a bore"
Sir John.
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Dec 7, 2013 23:40:26 GMT -5
Post by Swampy on Dec 7, 2013 23:40:26 GMT -5
Would sending in the 9th change things?
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Post by Sir John on Dec 8, 2013 0:40:28 GMT -5
Not much, they would end up in an 8 month debate on the pros and cons of military conflict.
SJ
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