Eggnog riot at West Point, 1826.

[Swampy]

On this festive day, I learned something about eggnog, namely, its effects on drunken cadets at West Point. According to the Wiki entry, whiskey was smuggled in to make eggnog, and, after the cadets had their fill, went on a drunken spree over several days. This led to the court martial of several cadets, many of whom were expelled.

I'm not sure if their rioting was serious enough to expel them, ruining their careers, but I'm not the owner of the damaged property.

[jerryfmcompushaft]

Apparently things were much more circumspect in those days - and- as students, they didn't have a career yet that could be ruined....

[hornet32]

Classes in that time period were very small 30-40 cadets and the Cadets didn't have much finesse .

[Swampy]

Dec 26, 2013 9:08:34 GMT -5 jerryfmcompushaft said:

as students, they didn't have a career yet that could be ruined....

Well, as I understand it, their careers begin when they enter first year, because they get paid to go to West Point. I was seriously thinking of entering Canada's military academy, but I knew I couldn't handle the physical, not to mention getting up early in the morning - and, of course, as I now know, I couldn't have passed the medical anyway. Ah well, you can't have everything in life.

[jerryfmcompushaft]

Well, as I understand it, their careers begin when they enter first year, because they get paid to go to West Point.

Read more: militaryaffairs.proboards.com/thread/2624/eggnog-riot-west-point-1826#ixzz2obvqZVha

You get paid to work at McDonald's also - but I wouldn't call it a career....

[Swampy]

From Major Joe Heaton on one of our Facebook groups:

I wouldn't say that I have any "insider" knowledge of the history or the lore of the incident, but I'll offer a perspective on your last comment about their careers.

In the civilian world, I think the philosophy should generally be "if there is no victim, then there is no crime." (I'm not arguing that is how it is, but how I think it should generally be.) But West Point is not the civilian world, and the punishment should not necessarily be tied to the amount of damage done. In the military world, discipline is a value of its own accord, and breeches in discipline should be dealt with, regardless of whether there is a victim or not. If a Soldier is consistently out of uniform, then there has to be legal mechanisms to instill that discipline. If the Soldier cannot be corrected, there have to be legal ways to separate him from the military. It is a small infraction by itself, which usually just requires making a small correction, but if a Soldier has a long trail of disobedience on the small things (whether malicious non-compliance or not caring enough to comply), then why would you give that Soldier greater responsibility on things that actually do matter? Why would you want him a part of the team when the days comes where lives are on the line?

West Point cadets are being trained to be leaders in our Army. Were I on the decision panel of these courts-martial, the last thing I would be worried about is their careers. If alcohol infringements are known to be grounds for expulsion, and they chose to ignore them, then why would I care more about their careers than they did in the first place? The first priority would be the Good Order and Discipline of the Army.

The second priority I would look at is their potential as officers in the Army. Being an officer is a privilege, not a career or a right, and the good officers know that it is a privilege that they have to earn daily. Good officers don't view themselves as "made men." Good officers are self-controlled and hold themselves to as high, or higher, standards as they hold their subordinates to. The actions of these cadets showed little potential to be good officers. Were I on the panel, I would be looking for which cadets were redeemable to become good officers. The rest... thanks for exposing yourself before the bullets started flying and good luck elsewhere.

[Sir John]

Jerry,


"but I wouldn't call it a career...."

A fairly recent global CEO of McDonalds was an Australian who began in the Company as a school kid flipping burgers here in Melbourne.


SJ

[jerryfmcompushaft]

Joe has the right slant on the issue.

[hornet32]

Officers where required to perform many functions the biggest one set the example for subordinates be tough but fair sometimes he had to be both judge and jury leadership was an officers main purpose in life , in my company the 116th we had 44 officers all but 6 were warrant officers most of the warrants were in their early 20's they were great pilots the best this Country could produce nobody looked for leadership from them they were crew members , the 6 with commissions the CO who was a major and 5 cptains two of which were flight leaders ( platoon leaders ) one was leader of gunships one was in charge of maintenance one served as XO , all were pilots .

[Swampy]

Speaking as a lawyer, we have laws against drinking and driving - in those days, did they have laws against drinking and horse riding?

[jerryfmcompushaft]

I don't know how it is now, but in my day, Warrant Officers were considered specialists, but were not necessarily looked to for leadership. I knew a number of Warrants who were leaders as well as specialists, but I also knew some Warrants who couldn't lead a two car funeral. Some of the pilots in particular, because of their age and limited training, didn't come even close to being officers. Some could barely be called adults and acted that way. Was OK as long as they could fly .....

[hornet32]

We had 5 warrants in the 116th that celebrated their 21 birthday and 2 that celebrated their 20th birthdays while I was there , pretty young great pilots , wild and crazy guys . The CO and Flight Leaders pretty much gave them their head way , morale was very important and the CO knew it .