Dieppe

[Swampy]

This is the 70th anniversary of the disastrous Canadian raid on Dieppe during WWII. At that time, the Germans were deep in Russia, and Britain was under pressure to start a second front. So Lord Mountbatten conceived of an idea to hit the French town of Dieppe, so as to bring the war to the enemy.

As most Canadians now know, that was a disaster. Dieppe was a heavily defended port, and of the four thousand soldiers that assaulted the emplacements, only half came back, a thousand were taken prisoner, and 900 were killed.

That said, there is an intriguing new theory on the raid. It was apparently a coverup to divert enemy forces while a secret team of British commandos infiltrated the German HQ to steal top-secret codes and other documents. The author of this, who apparently spent 15 years going through hundreds of thousands of declassified documents, did not say if the commandos succeeded, but the documentary will be airing tonight on Canada's History Channel.

The author also says Ian Fleming planned this. Fleming later wrote the James Bond novels, so this could all be sensationalism.

[jerryfmcompushaft]

Often when we do not like history we re-write it...

[Sir John]

I read an essay many years ago that claimed that the delay in launching the raid resulted in the info crossing the Channel and allowing the Germans to organise a reception committee.

true?


SJ

[Swampy]

The delay did give advance notice, which was disastrous. Many Canadians, including me, have blamed Lord Mountbatten for the fiasco.

I've watched the tail end of the documentary, and I would like to see what professional historians will say about it. But I'm wondering if the operation was ever feasible - I mean, they were going to attack a heavily-defended port, charge into the middle of the waterway, land commandos who would rush in and steal all the secret docs and ciphers of the enemy.

I'm also wondering how effective that would have been if the raid had succeeded - the Germans would just have changed their codes, and the British would be back to square one. That was in fact why the British didn't let anyone know they knew about the bombing raid on Coventry - so the enemy would NOT realize their intelligence had been compromised and react accordingly. Last, but perhaps not least, the British already had the ciphers and codes anyway - just read the classic book, "The Ultra Secret".

[boxcar]

I have read something about that. It stated they were after the new German radar set, and they took back parts of it.

[mcnoch]

The main problem with most such "new" discoveries is that they often try to establish links to other events at the same time which were unrelated (even not coincidental). Every day during WWII you had some clandestine operations, but while being in the same context doesn’t necessarily mean that they are connected.

Dieppe is not to be compared to D-Day, more to the Doolittle raid of 1942. I would rate Dieppe as an successful failure, which taught the Allies important lessons for D-Day and but the Germans on the wrong strategy in what to expect from an Allied landing in France.

[griffin]

Aug 19, 2012 17:54:52 GMT -5 Sir John said:

I read an essay many years ago that claimed that the delay in launching the raid resulted in the info crossing the Channel and allowing the Germans to organise a reception committee.

true?


SJ

John, the invasion force crossed paths with a small German convoy that put out a warning. The raid, which initially was to have been a small unit attack grew under Mountbatten. The Canadian General in charge was the sacrificial lamb after the battle. His superiors in the Canadian Army and the Brits that called the shots were the derelict in their duty. The General was a rare shining example in 1940 when as commander of the CDN. 2nd Division refused to destroy his equipment that had been landed in France prior to Dunkirk. The 2nd Div. was the only credible commonwealth force in Britian after Dunkirk when the Brits had lost most of their equipment in France. He complained about the lack of battleships and cruisers to support the raid and this in of itself doomed the raid as destoyers didn't have the firepower necessary to do things right. One of the key targets were radar installations. Some radar specialists were sent in with a 'bodyguard', who like with the 'Windtalkers' were to not allow the techy to be captured alive.

Lessons learned included:

You don't attack a heavily fortified port. That should have been evident to all, but apparently not to Mountbatten. They enfilade fire coming from the cliffs running across the beach, pill boxes with anti-tank and machine guns, etc.

The ground that tanks and other vehicles had to operate was critical. Amphibious landing of tanks was very new and Mountbatten and his planners seemed not to understood the trouble tanks would have on the beaches made of slippery pebbles. This is why divers were used in advance of D-Day to ascertain the composition of the soil, would it support tanks, etc.
That should have been evident to any tankers, but they were likely so far down the pole, that they were not consulted. The firepower of the tanks using smaller caliber guns was insufficient. One of the good things about this was the development of the 'Funnies' that saved a lot of lives for Commonwealth troops on D-Day.

Lack of control of the air was a critical error. Ships were sunk and many men died landing as the RAF and RCAF did not have control over the air.

[Swampy]

Mountbatten was never a gifted soldier anyway - he tried, but he wasn't anything special. He was, apparently, a good diplomat.

[Deleted]

I had been lead to understand that Dieppe was the brain child of Herr Churchill of Gallipoli fame .

[Sir John]

I doubt it.

.....and Gallipoli was a good idea stuffed up by crappy pom generals.



SJ

[Swampy]

Feb 19, 2013 21:29:24 GMT -5 @muleskinner07 said:

I had been lead to understand that Dieppe was the brain child of Herr Churchill of Gallipoli fame .

Mountbatten was responsible for Dieppe.

[Deleted]

Yes of course Mountbatten , I bow to knowledge .

[Deleted]

Old Mounty got a bit careless when he anchored his yacht off the Irish coast , he went boom .

[griffin]

Feb 20, 2013 20:03:16 GMT -5 @muleskinner07 said:

Old Mounty got a bit careless when he anchored his yacht off the Irish coast , he went boom .

Mountbatten was the person in charge of this action, however as pointed out there was pressure on the allies to take the pressure off the Soviet Union, which in 1942 was feeling the brunt of a Nazi invasion. Churchill, who liked aggressive leadership and the use of small units to cause havoc way out of proportion to their size would have been involved in some manner. He was very hands on, with all the positives and negatives this implied.

Finally, the Canadian troops had been 'chewing at the bit' to get into action, with many having first arrived in Britain in 1939-1940 period. There was a lack of understanding and listening on the part of the Cdn. Generals also, who didn't give credence to the Canadian Commander of the operation who had grave concerns about the entire setup, only then to be used as the fall guy by the Generals who wouldn't listen to him.

Enough blame to go around on this one.