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Post by Swampy on Jan 23, 2013 10:43:57 GMT -5
I support the departure entirely - Britain should still have free trade with the continent, however, just as it should have free trade with other countries, and just as the US and Canada should also have free trade with other countries. But Britain should not be part of a socialist experiment that has failed. The Europeans can still have an integrated economy and polity, but they have to step back and start over. |
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Post by mcnoch on Jan 24, 2013 0:41:18 GMT -5
This referendum means nothing and the UK will not leave, they know that they never will get as good market access again. So leaving the EU is a pipe-dream of the elder right-wing conservatives and super-nationalistic people; normally not a good combination. The younger people are in majority for the EU; they are often under-represented in the UK parliament but will have their vote in this referendum any maybe in the next election also. As the banking and other businesses are strictly again the UK leaving the EU it might cause a serious rift inside the UK society which will not help to overcome the massive economic problems in which the UK still is (and for which it is using the EU-debate as cover). Even now potential investors are turning away from the UK and many continental-European companies have already made plans to withdraw all critical hardware and staff from the UK in the next years and no longer build up anything new. The UK against the EU on the continent is that kind of nightmare the UK always had and always tried to avoid.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2013 5:10:25 GMT -5
The EU is a socialist dream, a failure, Britain should evacuate.
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Post by Swampy on Jan 24, 2013 10:29:59 GMT -5
The youth are not pro-Europe or anti-nationalistic so much as they are looking for work. And the EU has not delivered.
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Post by mcnoch on Jan 24, 2013 13:14:06 GMT -5
The EU was never build to deliver workplaces, the lack of workplaces for the younger people is the failure of business managers and local politicians who didn't realized that "growth" is not a solution for everything.
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Post by Swampy on Jan 24, 2013 15:05:39 GMT -5
The EU was never build to deliver workplaces, the lack of workplaces for the younger people is the failure of business managers and local politicians who didn't realized that "growth" is not a solution for everything. The common market was to deliver the goods, which meant jobs. |
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Post by Sir John on Jan 24, 2013 15:19:57 GMT -5
If it goes to a Referendum, and it is properly worded, the top 5% of Britain will be outvoted by the bottom 95%.
It will be carried.
SJ
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Post by mcnoch on Jan 27, 2013 2:24:15 GMT -5
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Post by Sir John on Jan 27, 2013 2:37:43 GMT -5
Pollies usually do not like calling inquiries or referendums without being sure of the end result.
Regardless of the advantages or disadvantages of the EU, I think most ordinary UK citizens resent it.
JMO
SJ
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Post by mcnoch on Jan 27, 2013 2:55:05 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 0:05:18 GMT -5
Pollies usually do not like calling inquiries or referendums without being sure of the end result. Regardless of the advantages or disadvantages of the EU, I think most ordinary UK citizens resent it. JMO SJ The company I managed was for a while a joint venture between a UK and an Aussie company, discussions I have had in the UK with their management indicated that the UK should not be an EU state. |
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Post by Sir John on Jan 28, 2013 0:14:32 GMT -5
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Post by mcnoch on Jan 28, 2013 1:09:07 GMT -5
The article is not bad in describing some problems we face here but it is clearly exaggerating the protests in Germany and Austria. THe Free Voters won their 10% in Bavaria over better access to kindergardens and stopp of the third star/landing runway for Munich airport. Bavaria and AUstria always faced the existance of some strange seperatistic political forces but they never had enough backing in the population as the people always know that the future is integration not confrontation that can't be won.
ANd those protesting loudest about tax-money going to help GIPS-countries are those who don't pay taxes or only very few taxes.
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Post by Sir John on Jan 28, 2013 2:30:15 GMT -5
What about the EU population in general, across all or most of the EU countries?
SJ
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Post by mcnoch on Jan 28, 2013 12:58:37 GMT -5
The mood in general is pro-Europe, the younger the stronger. The generations of up to 40 years old grew up in a united Europe and will not accept anything that is different. For the older generations the EU is still often something they read only in the press, they not even take the European elections as seriously as their local elections. That is completely different with the younger voters too. With the younger generation coming increasingly into political positions this view will become stronger in the political arena.
The benefits the united Europe brought were easily accepted as "normal", so the focus is always on the problems or disappointed expectations. Sometimes the people simply forget what was reached already. So depending when and how you ask the people will voice more concern or praise for the EU.
Some years ago some right-wing movements gained much more traction as a result of the permanent terror-warnings and the desire of some left-wing organizations to place the Islam above the European legal systems. Both lost traction now and we are back in the usual mode, but in some areas the nationalistic forces are still in their parliament seats and will continue to cause some attention. Interestingly enough with the unification and the danger of inter-country wars gone the desire for more local independence became stronger, but not because they resent the EU government, but because the areas no longer define themselves as part of this or that country but more along cultural borders. Europe is becoming increasingly the Europe of the regions and no longer of the states. As the people in neighboring regions often are multi-lingual even the language is no longer a barrier. In 20 years the meaning of state-borders is just a legal question anymore.
Other, real problems will move soon into the focus and the people are already starting to demand solutions on the European level for the over-aging, cost-increases in health-care etc.. These are the points will be the testing-ground for the EU, not some local natioanlistic voices which are easy to support by voice until the election day and then everybody is surprised what happened to all those angry people. We saw that just recently in Catalonia. The local independence party lost 35% of its voters.
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