Should Petain be honoured?

[Swampy]

President Macron of France seems to think so - Philippe Petain led his country to victory in the Battle of Verdun, but he later collaborated with the Nazis as Prime Minister of Vichy France.

I think he should be remembered but not honoured.

[Sir John]

I have a sneaking suspicion that Petain got a similar deal to Chamberlain.

Both knew that they were on a hiding to nothing when dealing with Hitler, and could only hope that they could buy time or to soften the blow of the events certain to come.

Agree that 'honour' is maybe not the right word for either of them, but respect and understanding are.

SJ

[Sir John]

This has prompted yet another of my googlle searches to show in defence of Chamberlain.

spitfiresite.com/2010/04/from-peace-to-war-royal-air-force-rearmament-programme-1934-1940.html/8

The conferences in Munich etc bought vital time that made a huge and probably critical difference. At the time of Munich, Supermarine and Hawkers were working 3 shifts a day!

SJ

[Swampy]

I know of this idea of Chamberlain buying time, but I think that, if the Czechs had been supported by France and Britain, Hitler would have backed off.

The other thing about Chamberlain buying time was that, even after Poland was invaded, he hesitated in declaring war. Last, but certainly not least, he wasn't in a healthy condition, so he would have been reluctant to do what was needed.

[Sir John]

Poland was invaded on the 1st of September 1939. (7 months after I was born)

An ultimatum was issued by Britain and France on that day. The 48 hours expired, and war was declared!

"Hesitated"?

SJ

[Swampy]

No formal declaration of war was immediately made. French Foreign Minister Georges Bonnet stated that France could do nothing until its parliament met on the evening of 2 September. Bonnet was trying to rally support for a Munich-style summit proposed by the Italians to be held on 5 September. The British Cabinet demanded that Hitler be given an ultimatum at once, and if troops were not withdrawn by the end of 2 September, that war be declared forthwith. Chamberlain and Halifax were convinced by Bonnet's pleas from Paris that France needed more time for mobilisation and evacuation, and postponed the expiry of the ultimatum (which had in fact not yet been served).[168] Chamberlain's lengthy statement made no mention of an ultimatum, and the House of Commons received it badly. Greenwood rose to "speak for the working classes". Conservative backbencher Leo Amery urged Greenwood to "Speak for England, Arthur", implying that the Prime Minister was not doing so.[169] Chamberlain replied that telephone difficulties were making it hard to communicate with Paris and tried to dispel fears that the French were weakening. He had little success: too many members knew of Bonnet's efforts. National Labour MP and diarist Harold Nicolson later wrote, "In those few minutes he flung away his reputation."[170] The seeming delay gave rise to fears that Chamberlain would again seek a settlement with Hitler.[171] Chamberlain's last peacetime Cabinet met at 11:30 that night, with a thunderstorm raging outside, and determined that the ultimatum would be presented in Berlin at nine o'clock the following morning—to expire two hours later, before the House of Commons convened at noon.[170] At 11:15 am, Chamberlain addressed the nation by radio, stating that the United Kingdom was at war with Germany ...

This is from the Wikipaedia entry, and it shows his reluctance.

[Sir John]

You left out the bit I was referring to,


"Germany invaded Poland in the early morning of 1 September 1939. The British Cabinet met late that morning and issued a warning to Germany that unless it withdrew from Polish territory Britain would carry out its obligations to Poland. When the House of Commons met at 6:00 pm, Chamberlain and Labour deputy leader Arthur Greenwood (deputising for the sick Clement Attlee) entered the chamber to loud cheers. Chamberlain spoke emotionally, laying the blame for the conflict on Hitler."

SJ

[Swampy]

Yes, he blamed Hitler, but his speech made no mention of an ultimatum, and he in fact wanted to postpone the ultimatum. It also says the House of Commons received it badly.

[Sir John]

I blame his speech writer myself!

[Sir John]

Slightly OT but,

... did you know that ALL of Her Majesty's (Peace be Upon Her) speeches are written by or authorised by the British government?

SJ

[Swampy]

Nov 15, 2018 22:15:48 GMT -5 Sir John said:

Slightly OT but,

... did you know that ALL of Her Majesty's (Peace be Upon Her) speeches are written by or authorised by the British government?

SJ

I would have presumed that her speeches were written by professionals, but I never knew that those speeches had to be authorized by the British government.

[Sir John]

The major example is the Opening of Parliament where she presides over proceedings.

That speech is written for her by the PM and his underlings. Anything that encroaches on 'policy and diplomacy is off the table.

That long list of sins and ommissions by George 3rd were ALL based on British Parliament policy. KG3 may have voiced an opinion but it would have counted for little.

Taxes on Tea was one of them.


SJ

[hornet32]

Marshall Petain was 80 some years old and he was placed between the rock and the hard place he did the best he could which wasn't much ..

[Swampy]

Good point, Tet, but the question is what anyone could have done.