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Post by Sir John on Jul 9, 2013 17:47:29 GMT -5
Jerry,
"Much has been theorized about the oriental mind set of not questioning authority. And the Pilot in Command is the authority no matter if he has more or less experience than the first officer. This could have been a factor."
Please correct me if I m wrong, but the Captain is in the left seat, and the First Officer is in the right seat and the Captain ONLY gets there by performance rating.
If the Captain feels that the First Officer is experienced and skillful enough, he will order the FO to take control during the landing (from the right seat). By that time the FO will have landed a 777 in the simulator dozens of times. I would also expect that he has assisted in landing 777 in reality, 100s of times.
During the FO's landing the captain may feel that the FO is going outside the norm and take over well in time to adjust, or should do.
JMO
SJ
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 18:06:20 GMT -5
Both sets of hands are on the controls during take off and landings the Pilot and co-pilot feel through the controls each others movement , this would take place some 50 miles out , something amiss ether could override the other ,but 110 times out of a 100 its pilot error .
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Post by Sir John on Jul 9, 2013 18:34:36 GMT -5
MS,
"but 110 times out of a 100 its pilot error"
100 times out of 110, I am inclined to agree.
A few months ago I was seated in an aircraft awaiting departure, and the pilot of the plane next to us was doing a walk around, and removing birds nests and stray animals from various cavities and orifices.
Only ever saw that once in a commercial aircraft.
SJ
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 19:03:47 GMT -5
The co-pilot is the one that does the visible check the pilot does the in cabin check same as in the military , in Jerry's case the pilot does the visual and the in cab , jerry also does the sweep up servers the beverages and collects the fare , he is also the baggage handler and tips his hat when you hand him a bob .
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Post by Sir John on Jul 9, 2013 19:13:55 GMT -5
"and tips his hat when you hand him a bob ."
Where the hell did you learn that term?
And a 'bob" is far too much, Australians HATE tipping!
The USA is a huge culture shock in that regard.
SJ
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 20:13:09 GMT -5
During my tour of the Empire I would often give a worthy a bob if he showed proper respect that is .
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Post by Sir John on Jul 9, 2013 20:58:32 GMT -5
Those that are not loyal subjects will not know that a "bob' is Australian slang for a Shilling (about 10 cents).
Sometimes also called a "Deener", the 5 pence was a "zack" and the 2 Shilling coin was a "Florin" which in fact is not slang, but a proper coinage word.
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Post by jerryfmcompushaft on Jul 9, 2013 22:37:35 GMT -5
I really can't fault either of the pilots on board. i can, however, blame the company president or their chief pilot or whoever it was who made the decision to let a captain with only 40+ hours experience in that airplane attempt to land it without electronic assistance. He should never have been in the left seat during a landing with a full load of passengers on board. A hundred or so hours in a simulater before taking on that role would have helped tremendously.
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Post by jerryfmcompushaft on Jul 9, 2013 22:47:13 GMT -5
Correct, SJ - Captain is in the left seat and in command of the aircraft. FO is in the right seat and assists as the captain directs. When they become familiar enough with each other and the trust has developed, the Capt will frequently allow the FO to make take offs and landings to get him experience and ready him for his move up to Captain. You do point out an interesting point of fact - we do not know who was handling the controls on this particular landing. i have been assuming it was the Captain all along, but it could have been the FO. As I remember it, now, the media has been intimating that the low experienced pilot had been assigned as Pilot in Command and the FO was giving him a checkride. From that I assumed that he was the one making the landing. We shall see....
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Post by Sir John on Jul 10, 2013 1:43:48 GMT -5
Jerry,
"the media has been intimating that the low experienced pilot had been assigned as Pilot in Command and the FO was giving him a checkride. From that I assumed that he was the one making the landing. We shall see...."
I cannot get my head around the situation of a Captain in the right seat and the FO in the left seat.
It is contradictory to me. For the Captain to have his appointment he should be well past any doubt on his ability and experience on the 777. The ONLY person checking out anyone should be at least that level.
JMO
SJ
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Post by dontom on Jul 10, 2013 5:37:14 GMT -5
My husband, Tom, and I went here today with the doggies to let them run around in an area next to the bay where there is a clear view of SFO. We could see the broken off tail of the plane, but not real clearly. It's still a distance to that runway from there next to the bay. -Don- SF, CA
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Post by mcnoch on Jul 10, 2013 7:46:36 GMT -5
I saw a simulation with the flight data recorder and the voices in the cockpit today. This approach was botched right from the start in all four dimensions (incl. time). The crew constellation is in line with that. Pilot Flying is new to the B-777, the Pilot not Flying is instructor, but new in this role also. Third person in cockpit is a normal B-777 pilot. It seems it was intended right from the start that this would be the crew constellation for the landing. As Asiana is using SFO very intensively it was paramount to get the PF fully qualified asap, so it was seen as best to let him gather his experience to land the B-777 at SFO with one instructor and one experienced pilot in the background. It was thought to be okay to use a relatively new instructor for this flight, because the pilot to be checked out was so experienced in general. Two weak links at the same time and the third pilot in the extremely uncomfortable position to have to intervene into the actions of a still new instructor who was checking out a much more experienced and in general senior pilot. And this combined with Asian “saving face” mentality.
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Post by jerryfmcompushaft on Jul 10, 2013 9:43:36 GMT -5
What we have here is a problem with titles. Captain and First Officer are "ranks" or "pay grades" as you would have it. The "Pilot in Command" is the guy (or girl) in the left seat. He could, or could not, be of equal, higher or lower rank than the guy (or girl) in the right seat. The PIC is final authority of what happens in and with the airplane. The guy in the right seat (sometimes referred to as the "non-flying pilot" is supposed to help but final decision making authority rests with the PIC. For example, when i took my check ride for my certificate the examiner had many, many more hours than did I. I didn't even have a license - but - he made it quite clear to me that I was in command. All decisions were mine unless he saw me about to do something that would get us both killed. And that's the way we flew the mission - he even accepted me telling him that I did not feel comfortable in performing a requested maneuver and waited until we had more altitude - my call!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2013 10:23:31 GMT -5
When I retired in 1999, I had nearly a million frequent flyer miles accumulated over the years and I vowed never again to fly. I've violated my oath one time, several years ago when my son and his wife got married in Cabo San Lucas. None since then although I'm a plaintiff in a class action suit and the defendants want to fly me to CA to take my deposition next month. Ain't gonna happen. They want me, here I am.
My vow has served me well as I've not been in a plane crash since that time. ;D
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Post by jerryfmcompushaft on Jul 11, 2013 9:15:05 GMT -5
Denny - If you keep your vow, your chances of being involved in a plane crash are greatly reduced - even more so if you vow to never drive in the vicinity of an airport.....
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