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Nov 29, 2013 22:54:08 GMT -5
Post by jerryfmcompushaft on Nov 29, 2013 22:54:08 GMT -5
Then listen to the North Vietnamese who speak Vietnamese. Such as Ho Chi Minh. They wanted freedom, Independence from other countries, and of course, peace, which the USA would not let them have. "The Vietnamese people deeply love independence, freedom and peace. But in the face of United States aggression they have risen up, united as one man." --Ho Chi Minh -Don Quoteman, SSF, CA And you are willing to stake your professional reputation on the validity of that translation??? You may even have believed Baghdad Bob when he announced the victory of the Iraqi forces and the vanquishing of the American imperialists.... I do know a number of Vietnamese who did not "rise up, united as one man" and I believe there were a a fair number that I did not know (I think they were referred to as the 'boat people')
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Nov 29, 2013 23:10:36 GMT -5
Post by dontom on Nov 29, 2013 23:10:36 GMT -5
And you are willing to stake your professional reputation on the validity of that translation??? Sure. I would say there's little doubt that Uncle Ho believed exactly what is in that quote. Why would you think otherwise? BTW, who doesn't claim to be fighting for "freedom" and such during ANY war? In fact, who claims to NOT want freedom at any time? -Don- SSF, CA
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Nov 30, 2013 0:28:30 GMT -5
Post by jerryfmcompushaft on Nov 30, 2013 0:28:30 GMT -5
And you are willing to stake your professional reputation on the validity of that translation??? Sure. I would say there's little doubt that Uncle Ho believed exactly what is in that quote. Why would you think otherwise? BTW, who doesn't claim to be fighting for "freedom" and such during ANY war? In fact, who claims to NOT want freedom at any time? -Don- SSF, CA And, of course, you believe that he was speaking foe the majority of the Vietnamese people..... And of course, when the North did, in fact, win the war, freedom was freely granted to all Vietnamese. Actions verified the validity of his words???
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Nov 30, 2013 1:02:11 GMT -5
Post by Swampy on Nov 30, 2013 1:02:11 GMT -5
HCM was definitely speaking for the majority - that's why over a million left, and the North had to clamp down to prevent further migration.
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Nov 30, 2013 1:02:35 GMT -5
Post by dontom on Nov 30, 2013 1:02:35 GMT -5
And, of course, you believe that he was speaking foe the majority of the Vietnamese people..... And of course, when the North did, in fact, win the war, freedom was freely granted to all Vietnamese. Actions verified the validity of his words??? As much as I had freedom to not fight in a war that I did not believe in. "The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do." --Eric Hoffer -Don Quoteman SSF, CA
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Nov 30, 2013 1:05:10 GMT -5
Post by dontom on Nov 30, 2013 1:05:10 GMT -5
HCM was definitely speaking for the majority - that's why over a million left, and the North had to clamp down to prevent further migration. Why did they leave? What were the reasons? Do you even know? And how come some from the south went up north? And how come after it was all over, there were still many more people in North Vietnam than in the south? -Don- SSF, CA
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Nov 30, 2013 1:12:42 GMT -5
Post by Swampy on Nov 30, 2013 1:12:42 GMT -5
HCM was definitely speaking for the majority - that's why over a million left, and the North had to clamp down to prevent further migration. Why did they leave? What were the reasons? Do you even know? And how come some from the south went up north? And how come after it was all over, there were still many more people in North Vietnam than in the south? -Don- SSF, CA They left to escape communism - that was the agreement that led to the partition. There were very few that went north - that's a historical fact. The communists clamped down on those that wanted to leave, and, even before the deadline, tried to prevent many from leaving. This was chronicled by the International Control Commission, which expressed grave concerns again and again about what the communists were doing. I argued this with David Fuhrman, and he accepted my postings on this from the ICC.
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Nov 30, 2013 2:35:56 GMT -5
Post by dontom on Nov 30, 2013 2:35:56 GMT -5
They left to escape communism - that was the agreement that led to the partition. What makes you think communism was the issue to them? Some left NV to be with their families in the south, knowing the war would make that impossible later. And some from the south went north, even if the numbers were not as high. Even after all that, the population of the north was much greater than in the south. There were very few that went north - that's a historical fact. I wasn't asking for numbers. Perhaps they liked the weather better in the south or whatever. How come they didn't all try to leave the north? And how come ANY went north, if even only two people? Is it because they wanted communism? And why were so many fighting so hard for Uncle Ho? Much harder than the ARVN's would fight. The communists clamped down on those that wanted to leave, and, even before the deadline, tried to prevent many from leaving. This was chronicled by the International Control Commission, which expressed grave concerns again and again about what the communists were doing. Could it be that they knew the USA was coming, and felt safer in the south? I too would have felt safer in the south, knowing I will be on the same side of the USA and several other countries. I have seen no evidence to support the theory that the reason they went south was to "escape communism". Many people from Mexico come to the USA to live but it's not because Mexico is communist. Why would those in the north even care if they go commie? Does it make much difference to the average family living there, trying to grow enough rice to fed their own family? -Don- SSF, CA
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Nov 30, 2013 2:47:44 GMT -5
Post by Swampy on Nov 30, 2013 2:47:44 GMT -5
You've stated the obvious reason. And, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
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Nov 30, 2013 8:38:31 GMT -5
Post by jerryfmcompushaft on Nov 30, 2013 8:38:31 GMT -5
HCM was definitely speaking for the majority - that's why over a million left, and the North had to clamp down to prevent further migration. Why did they leave? What were the reasons? Do you even know? And how come some from the south went up north? And how come after it was all over, there were still many more people in North Vietnam than in the south? -Don- SSF, CA Take it from me, Don, even in the US Army, you had a lot more freedom and creature comforts than most of the North Vietnamese, and infinately more freedom than the South Vietnamese after the fall of Saigon. I would guess that some from the South went North because even in the US there are some misguided folks who will vote for anyone who promises them free stuff even if it makes no sense. And I'm not sure that there were many more people in North Vietnam than in the south, but, if true, it could probably be accounted for by the fact that the North started out with more and that many left the south anyway they could to avoid coming under control of the North (That people's paradise - ya' know....)
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Post by dontom on Dec 1, 2013 4:53:34 GMT -5
Take it from me, Don, even in the US Army, you had a lot more freedom and creature comforts than most of the North Vietnamese, I kinda doubt that, unless you're referring to the NVA and not the North Vietnamese civilians. I know that the NVA and VC had it rough. Of course they did, I was there! Remember what happened to Uncle Ho the day I arrived in Vietnam! and infinately more freedom than the South Vietnamese after the fall of Saigon. That I can buy. One of Tommy's brother's wife was in one of those economic camps, because she owned and operated (with many others of her family) a large plastics business in Saigon. I've heard her stories. But what would you expect after such a long war? I would guess that some from the South went North because even in the US there are some misguided folks who will vote for anyone who promises them free stuff even if it makes no sense. And I'm not sure that there were many more people in North Vietnam than in the south, but, if true, it could probably be accounted for by the fact that the North started out with more and that many left the south anyway they could to avoid coming under control of the North (That people's paradise - ya' know....) I've been in China when it was still fairly hard commie (early 1981)and I've also been there a couple of times since then. Like anything else, there are advantages and disadvantages of either way. Back then, in 1981, when nobody had much, most people still did fine, and crime was nonexistent, at least on the streets. Now that they are not nearly as commie as they used to be, crime is through the roof and it is no longer considered safe to walk around in some areas, espcally at night. I don't consider it to be freedom when you're afraid to walk down the street. But "freedom" is just a meaningless word, where every time the word is used it must be explained or else it means nothing at all. But there are many other words like that too, such as the word "love" or even "best". They mean nothing until explained every time used. For an example, I don't know how many times I have heard a divorcee say they still loved their spouse, but decided to get a divorce. What does that mean? It has to be explained every time it's used. These words have so many definitions that they might as well have none at all. Like I once hear a Taoist say, "excessive means the same thing as insufficient". That's very true, IMO. -Don- SSF, CA
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Dec 1, 2013 10:13:07 GMT -5
Post by Swampy on Dec 1, 2013 10:13:07 GMT -5
Ummm, Don, they put 2.5 million in concentration camps, and a million died. Another million fled as boat people, and hundreds of thousands were sent to work in the Soviet bloc as slave laborers. This jibes with their previous actions, not just during the war, but before and after the partition of 1954 - the communists were a brutal, murdering bunch.
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Dec 1, 2013 18:02:10 GMT -5
Post by hornet32 on Dec 1, 2013 18:02:10 GMT -5
The Kamer Rouge were many times harder on the Cambodians than the Vietnamese were on the Vietnamese , never would have happen if the U.S. stayed but it was a war that the American people were tired of , where were the Canadians when you needed them .
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Post by dontom on Dec 2, 2013 1:57:33 GMT -5
Ummm, Don, they put 2.5 million in concentration camps, and a million died. Another million fled as boat people, and hundreds of thousands were sent to work in the Soviet bloc as slave laborers. And perhaps none of that would have happened if the USA would mind its own business to begin with. -Don- SF, CA
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Post by Swampy on Dec 2, 2013 2:47:11 GMT -5
Not quite - the communists were brutal even before the US came into power, as witness the atrocities of Stalin and Mao. The common explanation among the communist regimes is NOT American intervention but the regimes.
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