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Post by Swampy on Dec 8, 2012 22:05:00 GMT -5
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Post by Sir John on Dec 8, 2012 22:44:10 GMT -5
It has always intrigued me that on that day the 'Pensacola Convoy', carrying men and materials (crated aircraft and artillery) for Gen MacArthur's garrison in the Philippines, was immediately diverted to Brisbane, Australia.
Does this indicate that they knew it would be next, and that it had no hope of prevailing over the Japanese onslaught?
SJ
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Post by Sir John on Dec 8, 2012 22:46:49 GMT -5
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Post by Sir John on Dec 8, 2012 22:55:57 GMT -5
the 'See Also' link (Battle of Brisbane) is also interesting.
...and lastly, the Japanese ships and planes that attacked PH wre the same ones that attacked Darwin on the 19th Feb 1942.
Dropped more bombs on Darwin than they did on PH.
SJ
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2012 22:57:44 GMT -5
Swampy the Japanese attack on Darwin, Australia resulted in greater loss of life, damage and shipping sunk than at Pearl Harbour. Australians were not told how serious the attacks were at the time. They also attacked repeatedly Broome Western Australia, Mt Isa North Queensland and Townsville NQ and various other targets.
Their plan until rejected was to capture Darwin and send troops south on bicycles to Alice Springs and capture that town and the railway south to Adelaide and then fan out to capture other cities around the coastline. Most of our military was out of the country and the Japanese counted on little more than civilian resistence.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2012 23:00:41 GMT -5
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Post by Swampy on Dec 8, 2012 23:08:43 GMT -5
Thanks, Premier - I never knew about the Battle of Brisbane. I'll post this in the Facebook version of this forum.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2012 23:53:56 GMT -5
Swampy my father served in a joint operations intelligence unit consisting of soldiers from various nations working for General MacArthur in various places New Guinea, Phillipines and other countries and he told me how well the group he worked with got along with one another.
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Post by Swampy on Dec 8, 2012 23:56:36 GMT -5
I'm sure they did, at the upper levels.
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Post by Sir John on Dec 8, 2012 23:58:00 GMT -5
....with one exception!
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Post by mcnoch on Dec 12, 2012 12:01:39 GMT -5
The tensions between Japan and the USA were very high. Everyone knew that Japan had maneuvered itself into a corner where its only escape would be to start a war with the USA. Everyone who was following these developments since early 1941 knew that Japan would have to go to war because of the trade-ban and when the USA raised the level to a point where it was “War or Surrender” it was clear that war would start within days as the preparations clearly showed that Japan was prepared to do so. Not all information were available at Washington on 7th Dec, but enough to know what was coming. Was it a surprise attack? For most of the normal Americans who didn’t paid much attention to the political developments in the Pacific it was, for those diplomats, intelligence folks, politicians and military planners it was not. The USS Midway had sealed orders that permitted war operations if required by the situation. That is a standard military precaution, but shows that it was not a surprise. Maybe the “success” was a surprise, most likely they expected less damage.
That Germany declared war on America was a nice side-effect. The real target was to get the USA into the war, on which front the shooting started was only secondary as over short it would be fought on both fronts anyhow.
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Post by Sir John on Dec 12, 2012 14:13:24 GMT -5
Matthias,
I will not subscribe to the theory that FDR knew in advance that PH was going to be attacked on 7th Dec, but as pointed out they had a good idea an attack was coming, somewhere.
At that point the leadership knew that the US was going to be catapulted into war no matter what.
I also do not accept that the Pacific War was caused by the USA and its trade embargo. The USA was a good friend of China, and was outraged at events over the previous few years, including the Rape of Nanking. Opposition to Japan on that score was perfectly understandable.
Japan was 100% intent on gaining her "Greater East-Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere', no matter what, and no matter who she had to kill to get it.
I still believe that the USA would have gone to Tokyo before she began to worry about Berlin. Military gear and industrial support yes, but not a declaration of war. Hitler solved that.
JMO
SJ
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Post by Sir John on Dec 12, 2012 14:14:56 GMT -5
PS,
Hitler was as cunning as a latrine rodent, but a fool militarily. Germany's fate was entirely on his shoulders.
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Post by mcnoch on Dec 12, 2012 14:56:43 GMT -5
John, I agree that it was not known that it would be December 7th, but given that all military expected an attack on a sunday and the time was ripe, I think there were not too many possibilities. In fact they expected it on the sunday one week before.
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Post by Sir John on Dec 12, 2012 15:57:46 GMT -5
Interesting, I had not thought of the 'Sunday' aspect, but it is logical of course.
No good having a surprise attack if the target is not surprised.
SJ
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