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Post by Swampy on Dec 7, 2012 21:56:33 GMT -5
I'm one day late for this, I guess, but I'll post it anyway.
Everyone on this forum knows the theory that Roosevelt knew about the attack but didn't tell anyone, leading to a great disaster. His motive, of course, was to jolt the Americans into fighting Hitler.
But, if that was true, why didn't he get Congress to declare war on Germany? They declared war on Japan, but not Germany, and they were at peace until Hitler declared war on the US.
That's the inconvenient fact that conspiracy theorists don't deal with.
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Post by boxcar on Dec 8, 2012 2:53:46 GMT -5
In my opinion, we declared war on Japan because they attacked us. Germany declared war on us because they had an agreement with the Axis powers that a war with one of them was a war with all of them.
Then we have Japan which disputes this theory. They never declared war on Russia. At the very end of WWII, a few weeks before the signing of the peace treaty, Russia declared war on Japan, more than likely so that they could occupy some of the northern Japanese islands.
You tell me what their motives were.
>>Everyone on this forum knows the theory that Roosevelt knew about the attack but didn't tell anyone, leading to a great disaster<<
It has also been stated that Roosevelt was very sloppy with classified information and as a result was restricted from top secret information.
Yes, it has often been speculated that Roosevelt wanted something like a nice war to pull us out of the depression. But that is just so much speculation. How much good did a few nice little wars do for Obama?
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Post by Sir John on Dec 8, 2012 3:10:51 GMT -5
"Then we have Japan which disputes this theory. They never declared war on Russia. At the very end of WWII, a few weeks before the signing of the peace treaty, Russia declared war on Japan, more than likely so that they could occupy some of the northern Japanese islands. You tell me what their motives were."
At the Potsdam Conference it was agreed that Russia would declare war on Japan 90 days after the German surrender.
They did exactly that!
Of course the capture of the Japanese island was a bonus I am sure they had already planned, and japan has NIL hope of ever getting them back.
As for Pearl Harbor, FDR was advised by the British, Australian and Dutch (and probably US) intelligence services that Japan planned an attack and IMHO Pearl Harbor is the only logical target. Guam and the Philippines do not fill the bill, ONLY the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl does.
JMO
SJ
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Post by Swampy on Dec 8, 2012 3:19:50 GMT -5
As for Pearl Harbor, FDR was advised by the British, Australian and Dutch (and probably US) intelligence services that Japan planned an attack and IMHO Pearl Harbor is the only logical target. Guam and the Philippines do not fill the bill, ONLY the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl does. There have been studies of attacks that surprised the defenders despite the enormous amount of evidence. Such cases are 1) The 1941 invasion of Russia, 2) The Yom Kippur War, and, 3) Pearl Harbor.
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Post by Sir John on Dec 8, 2012 3:28:46 GMT -5
Swampy,
Actually, Stalin was told by British Intelligence that the 1941 attack was coming hut he refused to believe it. He thought it was a 'capitalist plot'.
SJ
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Post by Swampy on Dec 8, 2012 3:30:08 GMT -5
Actually, Stalin was told by British Intelligence that the 1941 attack was coming hut he refused to believe it. He thought it was a 'capitalist plot'. Exactly!
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Post by boxcar on Dec 8, 2012 3:31:27 GMT -5
>>As for Pearl Harbor, FDR was advised by the British, Australian and Dutch (and probably US) intelligence services that Japan planned an attack and IMHO Pearl Harbor is the only logical target.<<
There was some speculation that the new commander of Pearl Harbor pre attack, Hummel (or something close to that spelling) was an odd choice. He passed over some very senior people to get the assignment, and then the military (read Roosevelt) screwed over him after the attack. There is speculation that he may well have been set up.
That little episode makes for some very interesting reading and speculation.
Just my hunch. Box
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Post by Swampy on Dec 8, 2012 3:34:27 GMT -5
Admiral Husband Kimmel would spend the rest of his life trying to live that down. I'm glad I don't have that fate.
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Post by boxcar on Dec 8, 2012 3:42:51 GMT -5
I understand that his notification of an imminent attack was sent by commercial lines and not sent as an urgent message. It arrived after the attack.
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Post by bluejay77 on Dec 8, 2012 13:31:55 GMT -5
To my knowledge, the hope of the Axis powers was that if Nazi Germany could overcome and occupy the UK, then the Axis could launch a two-ocean attack against the USA, by the combined force of the Nazis and the Japanese.
This never came true of course, after the Battle of Britain.
Moreover, to my knowledge there were there radars in the Pearl Harbor base, and they gave some kind of warning of the imminent Japanese attack, but this intel (maybe!) was not considered very important, because radars were then so very novel. (Is this true?)
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Post by boxcar on Dec 8, 2012 16:59:54 GMT -5
Moreover, to my knowledge there were there radars in the Pearl Harbor base, and they gave some kind of warning of the imminent Japanese attack, but this intel (maybe!) was not considered very important, because radars were then so very novel. (Is this true?)
They were a novelty. It is said the approaching Japanese fleet was reported to the duty officer, but he assumed it was a flight of B-17s that were expected and disregarded the radar reports.
there radars in the Pearl Harbor base………..there was just one.
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Post by Sir John on Dec 8, 2012 17:20:14 GMT -5
The German declaration of war is on a par with Hitlers invasion of Russia, and the Pearl Harbor attack.
All destined to create disaster.
SJ
(in fact i think Hitlers declaration was about the only time he ever honoured an agreement.)
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Post by Sir John on Dec 8, 2012 17:23:40 GMT -5
PS,
If Hitler had not declared war on the USA it would have been an interesting 'What if'. I presume that the USA would not have done so, at least until she was just outside Tokyo, and by that time Hiltler MAY have been able to force Russia into an cease fire agreement, and new borders.
Maybe!
SJ
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Post by Swampy on Dec 8, 2012 18:03:19 GMT -5
The US Navy was already shooting it out with the German U-boats, so something or other would have happened. I don't know what FDR would have done, but, yes, it would have been an interesting scenario.
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Post by boxcar on Dec 8, 2012 20:57:26 GMT -5
Recall at the time (1)America was a nation of isolationists and did not want to get involved in any more European wars. (2) In some quarters Germany was held in high regard. German Bunds were formed…1934 to 1938, I believe. And there was much German pageantry. Sentiment only changed when Germany invaded the low countries and Norway.
Later on, the easiest way for FDR to get involved was by the use of Lend Lease. That did fine until GB ran out of money. Then we swapped destroyers for islands in the Caribbean
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